If the airbox had high pressure it would start to push the water away from the engine (into the cockpit). Rear mounted radiator set-up pics and info. With these entries I suggest a small radius for the air entering and a lager ellipse on the exposed external shape. It isn’t worth concerning yourselves too much about boundary layers but they are important. $23.07. trying to put my radiator in the bed of my truck, what do you guys run as coolant line. SKU: HR2X2X0. $27.27. Ducting. A bigger entry will tend (all other things being equal) to have more drag. We would then fit the diffusing extenders and the test would be repeated. Sort by. Some of us were pushing to fit simple fabricated diffusers onto the back of the NACA ducts in a way that would be compatible with the removal of the engine cover and give the ducts a better chance of feeding the engine with high pressure air. This was the perfect size (not luck) for two 50mm (I think) diameter ducts (on each side). A frame is supported on and connected to the front and rear wheels. Richard was feeling sick (wanting to throw up) from being thrown around in the race car while trying desperately to concentrate on water levels in clear plastic tubes. A word of caution about splitters. However, we’d increased the pressure in the duct to above the level of the cockpit, and that made all the difference. There are plenty of scientific articles out there that will explain that you need no more than 7 degrees for an expanding duct like this. A motorcycle is provided having front and rear wheels. The lower half of the U was filled with water (before we attached one end to the airbox). Of course this is influenced by the speed of the vehicle, the radiator area, heat rejection etc. Add to cart. The blockage of the radiator allows faster (more than 7 degrees) when you get close to the surface of the radiator. Nice radius on the leading edge to ensure there is nothing to trip up the air and the expander is a low angle. See my post “Control over Power”. In fact you can gain cooling performance at the cost of drag by adding a small trip srtip to the side edges. In addition there is a certain amount of skin friction on both sides of any sheet, so that too has to be taken into account if you put splitters into a duct. Hence, if you are designing a duct from scratch, play with the length and expansion rate to try to minimise the number of splitters so you get each branch of a duct down to about 7 degrees. It isn’t always super easy and I can’t cover everything here but here are some practical tips. Now to set the scene, this is about road going vehicles with a rear mounted radiator at sustained open road speed ... and from past vehicles I've built for the road (I solved one with ducting, one with extra radiator core (I used two radiators), and the rest with HD fans (Audi ones I think from the A4's, these fans will pick themselves up off the floor and fly! some teams run radiators at the rear of the vehicle to reduce coolant line weight or at the outlets of undertray diffusers, the most common design is a single side mounted radiator. The main penalty is likely to be more drag and the benefits trivial or negative. what are the do's an don'ts i want to mount my radiator in the rear of my 46 chevy truck to keep my front grill low Tags: None. We stock a comprehensive range of Mini Heater Air Duct Components including air vents , air vent surrounds , air vent finishers , heater ducting pipes , heater hoses and heater cables . The stock radiator is mounted up front which leaves it very vulnerable to damage and mud clogging. BHFLA100. We simply connected wire reinforced flexible ducting (known colloquially as donkey dick): one to cool the brakes and one to blow air into the cockpit for the driver. PVC Duct Hose . This statement particularly applies to those you can buy on line for motorsport applications. Air Ducts – a down to earth guide for motorsport applications Published on January 6, 2016 January 6, 2016 • 195 Likes • 20 Comments ?material matchingexcess cooling capacity - card over ra, Inventors of the Subaru - VW conversion bell housing using Subaru flywheel, clutch and starter, rjes.com v1.11, Copyright © R Jones, R J Engineered Solutions, 2002 - 2008. The effect on your case temps will be minor, if you can even … These mounts attach just in front of the radiator and offer a quick disconnect feature for a easy trailer loading. The entry is a very important thing and sizing the entry is part of it. To address the cons of a rear-mount radiator, here are calculations that describe both the pressure head on the water pump and added mass from potential rear-mounting of the radiator. I ran it like this for about 6 months, blew up another eg33 and got sick of dealing with their issues, and switched to a ej205 (at which point I changed back to a front mounted radiator to save weight. Image taken at the Heritage Motor centre where a nice example was on display. Get the protection you need by following these steps. Ducts are there to capture air from, ideally, a clean, high energy source and conduct it to the place it needs to be used (usually for cooling of some sort, or for “feeding” an engine). Pissin off the purists. An exit duct adds weight and very few exist in F1. Radiator Here at Mini Sport , we stock a selection of Classic Mini Radiators suitable for all Classic Mini models from 1959 - 2001 for road, race, rally and auto-test applications. That was the end of the discussion regarding diffusing extenders – they were a standard fitment from that point on. Many that I’ve tested were worse than allowing the air to find its way around the packaged essentials under the car’s bodywork – and average airspeed is very low. Rear mounted Radiators 04-03-2011, 06:42 PM. In the corners you spend some time off throttle so the air must be able to find a way around the entries and still provide clean air to the rear wing. In order to pay some respect to the styling of the traditional Aston grill we put two oval entries for cooling low down beside the main radiator entry at the front of the car. A/C Refrigerant Hose . Expanding the air gently is the right thing to do. Unfortunately, the brakes overheated and the driver was feeling pretty cooked as well. Add to wish list. I am currently using a top mounted radiator for my CPU and was wondering where I should put the radiator for the GPU. Air for the radiator goes between the bumper fascia and the splitter. Not terribly scientific but worth a shot for a back-to-back test as we didn’t have any data logging as such back then - we expected the pressure inside to be relatively consistent run to run. A motorcycle is provided having front and rear wheels. More density means more air (oxygen molecules in this case is the important bit) gets into the engine (and in this case it is also cooler = even more density). The white material surrounding the duct is an insulator. Driver's seat bracket. A NACA duct works well with sharp side edges to allow a vortex to form on each side – rarely seen in lower levels of motorsport. We also, put in a bar on each side to reinforce the shock mount area. Our range of covers standard radiators for all carburetor , SPi and MPi Mini’s, 2 core and 4 core high-flow uprated radiators and high efficiency aluminium radiators for the ultimate in cooling performance . Some other comments about ducting air. We have There was relatively little water displacement without the extenders and to be honest I don’t remember in which direction the water moved for that baseline test. As can be seen, the coolant hose diameter plays a role, and the diameter can be chosen to balance head loss and added water mass to the vehicle. Detmar 751 Blower, In-Line 4 Inch Intake X 4 Inch Exhaust, 12 Volt . For my other posts see :- https://www.linkedin.com/today/posts/willemtoet1, https://www.linkedin.com/today/posts/willemtoet1, NICEIC Registered Electrician & Property…. Where flow alignment changes during vehicle use (front wing angle changes, pitch change etc.) I’m not even sure if we had a real seat on the passenger side so he was having to hold on to the roll bars at the same time – quite a challenge! It is a good strategy to do that in any case if you can. More power equals more heat to dissipate. Richard Marshall commented "If I remember correctly we did some pressure logging on the installation and it generated positive pressure at exactly the design vehicle/ engine speed." Airbox entries for motorsport. It could still house mounting points for the headlights and nose, but would give me the freedom to mount a radiator at any angle or location I wanted (within the confines of the front nose, of course). Something had to be done, and quickly. Market price: $29.99 Save 23%. Think about what will happen on an airbox in particular if the throttles are closed. A radiator entry should be at least 20% of the area of the core for most motorsport applications. all 'cooling packs'. Inside the cockpit Richard would hold the long section of tubing into a U shape. Air is not going to speed up to faster than the car if there is blockage in the duct further down the line, as there always is with brake ducts or radiator ducts. Another long post from me, which I hope gives you a head start with your motorsport ducting! I reduced the entry areas as part of the drag reduction package and just about everybody other than me was convinced it was going to overheat and would never be able to run with such a small entry (especially in the heat at Bonneville). The frame includes a rear swing frame pivotally connected to a front frame. That is also what is missing from commercially available ducts. An extreme example was the BAR Honda Bonneville F1 car. We added a bar for the passenger seat. The trick is to pick the air up in a place where there is plenty of energy and pressure and then to expand it out gently and duct it to exactly where it is needed. Bulkhead Flanges . Why expand? Surface finishes can change the way boundary layers form and behave, but the effect is usually minor compared to the shapes involved and possibly the subject of some future posts – and now we’re starting to get a bit scientific..... For very long bodies (not motorsport) surface finish and skin friction can become a major contributor to drag and airflow distribution. It wasn’t a problem because almost all of its running was at high speed and the heat rejection is the same as when pulling a much higher drag vehicle (so going slower but outputting the same amount of heat energy). Genuine BMW Part - 46638522264 (46-63-8-522-264, 46637715951) With the expander fitted a second run was done and the difference was significant and clear. Page 1 of 2 1 2 Next > Polo Sr20 parts man! However, the chassis finished just rearward of the closing of the ducts. SKU: RYPDET754-ALL13008. Jul 1, 2008 18:36:18 GMT -5 . Press ESC to close.) If you have the length of duct to be able to size your entries to a speed and still have attached flow then you’re in a good positon. Once the duct is closed, an expander is needed to convert dynamic pressure (speed/energy) into static (think of it as surface) pressure. This accelerates the air backwards and the reaction of this acceleration against the installation provides a small forward thrust. This is simply a brain dump of my current understanding. Sceptics in the team were not convinced that it would make any difference at all. Radiators often seem to be installed in a 'minimum effort' kind of way, rather than one with any real engineering intent behind it. Subaru Conversion Information Resource Navigation Bar - over 160 pages of info on Subaru powered VW’s! Richard was already designing his own data logging systems back then so it was natural that he'd want to measure the impact the duct had. They are just as applicable to kit cars, hot rods, intercoolers, oil coolers, etc., - i.e. $14.74. There are many good reasons and a few reasons not to do this. Add to compare list Add to wishlist. Ducting doesn't have to be in the form of a vent or scoop. We had a small airbox on the Nimrods which were fed air by genuine NACA design ducts. For those whom are running rear mounted radiator, or a radiator that is front mounted but you have a rear V8, what are you using to run the plumbing? It seemed a miracle from the driver’s perspective because we were picking the air up from the same place, giving him a third of the air rather than a half, but more came through. Heater Air Ducting Shop Heater System Parts online at Mini Sport with heater air ducting parts available for every model of classic Mini including Mk1, Mk2, Mk3, Mk4 and Mk5. : Radiator Installation Design GuideIntroduction: There are a number of basic rules to designing a radiator installation which, if followed, will considerably increase the chances of your installation working properly. I suggest that a splitter should start where you have high confidence of the flow angularity to minimise the risk of that. Air cooled VW's present their own problems for radiator installations, particularly the following: All of these result in the radiator installations in previously air cooled VW's tending to be in non ideal locations, which, in turn, means that everything possible should be done to improve their efficiency if they are to work effectively. Aerodynamicists learn all about the theory and that’s useful for sure and important when pushing the boundaries of the possible but not vital if you have a slightly less advanced airflow related job to do. I’d like this to be a simple guide to improving some parts of your race car wherever you need to provide passively induced “forced” airflow. Each of these points is discussed in more detail below: Rad core sizeRad core typeanti recircductingcoolant air tempcoolant air flowturbulant flowwoolprotectionmesh flow reductionRad can't be too big?? For this reason the initial car had the airbox fed by these shortened expanders/diffusers with the engine cover finishing the seal of the open topped airbox. The hot, pressurised air then exits through the exhaust duct which is shaped to be convergent, i.e. Brake Duct Flange mounts to the nose of your car using 3/16″ rivits and is rigid enough to use a It is quite likely that air will flow in fast where the approach air is high speed (energy) or high static pressure to start with, and will slow down or (in some cases) go backwards if there are parts of a duct entry that are being “fed” by low pressure and/or low energy air. A very common problem for any UTV enthusiast is over heating due to the stock mounting location of the radiator. http://www.heritage-motor-centre.co.uk/. Richard nearly had a small shower as the water was being pushed away from the engine into the cockpit. It is a risk to take advantage of this if you don't have good tools to assess performance. This is particularly important when the radiator is installed in a non ideal location. For this and other reasons, airboxes also have increasing rates of expansion. It is a trick many aero people use in all sorts of applications. Power increase is often one of the key reasons for doing an engine conversion. One was for the brakes and driver cooling of the Lord Downe owned Aston Martin Nimrod (1983). Air flowing near a surface is slowed – you can think of it as feeling friction. Basic Rules of Cooling Pack Installation Design: If you want to see how much excess cooling capacity a radiator installation has, progressively block off more and more of it, driving it in between in the maximum ambient temperature you’re likely to see, and look out for temperature increases. When tested this felt like a miracle. It is rare though to have enough space to do this. Two early diffusing ducts have stuck in my mind because of their surprising (at the time) impact on performance. and is a rear mounted rad street legal. Note that radiator ducts are different because of the blockage caused by the core of the radiator. If that doesn’t give you enough cooling then look at ducting the air using a gently increasing expander / diffuser. A sharp leading edge can lead to separation right there at the leading edge if the airflow is not aligned. The entry should be aligned with the flow or you may trip the air at the entry. So on a publicity day when it was possible for people to have “taxi” rides it was decided that Richard Williams (our team manager) would sit in the car for a back-to-back run to assess the performance of our extended diffusers. Ray (Mallock) would do a lap with the non extended arrangement with Richard trying to see if there was any significant displacement of the water on the straights. If you have a car like this and it has cooling problems then first seal the radiator to the bodywork so virtually all the air has to pass through the core. biGshiz79 . Silicone Duct Hose . If you go significantly bigger you typically pay the price of some drag. Joined Dec 15, 2010 Messages 2,660. If it had suction it would suck the water towards the engine. We agreed a standard limiting rpm in top gear on the straights so we had a consistent reading and Ray has always been good at details such as that. Image thanks to AMR1.uk and “Vantage Summer 2014”. To make sure as much air goes through the radiator as possible, ducting is required. The mounts are solid to capture air and force it into your radiator. The engine is disposed between the front and rear wheels. 100mm O.D. These rules seem to be either unknown or ignored by a lot of people coming up with a custom radiator installation for their engine conversion. Display. The engine is disposed between the front and rear wheels. The expanders (but not the NACA ducts, unfortunately) are visible at the top of the picture ahead of the airbox. All the air which flows into the duct has to go through the radiator to get out. Joined: Aug 24, 2006 Posts: 6,500 Likes Received: 2 Location: S-body Automotive.com. Detmar 754 Blower, In-Line 3 Inch Intake X 3 Inch Exhaust, 12 Volt. What about metal plumbing? The driver commented that he felt like he was being blown out of the cockpit and the brakes ran well within the limits of the temperature paint we put onto the rim of the disks (unlike before). kiss my grits! Showroom Opening Hours: Monday - Friday 8:30am - 5:00pm Saturday 8:30am - 12pm Don’t be tempted to go for a monster entry to try to “ram” air into something – it isn’t the way to go. Ducting. air cooled) from the outside. How the duct is closed is also an important (often ignored) design feature. A longer duct of low expansion angle is slightly better than a shorter duct of double the angle with a splitter, because the skin friction causes the growth of a “boundary layer” which grows at a non linear rate (fast growth at first). We needed the extra length to be able to expand the air back to the area of the radiators. Be careful with airboxes in particular – you cannot expand the air at a high rate and change its flow direction at the same time. Often there isn’t the space to do this realistically but here’s an example of a duct that benefitted from making space. CDCT60. Thread in 'Technical Questions' started by Polo, Oct 14, 2011. Warning: I don’t do rear mount setups. use a bit of a radius at the leading edge to allow for changes of alignment. Bulkhead Flange Connector . As with all retrofitted parts, space was at a premium. A frame is supported on and connected to the front and rear wheels. Mount it to the front. Richard had his thumb at the ready to seal the open end. We had no choice but to expand faster than the recommended max of 7 degrees. Two parallel side mounted radiators on either side is less frequently used due to the added weight of coolant lines and tanks. I say genuine because most NACA style ducts you see on race cars are nothing of the sort. SKU: RYPDET751. I had a eg33, and did not want to hack up my core support, but wanted a radiator that would keep the big 3.3 cool. The Nimrod had some carefully sculpted NACA ducts in the chassis / cockpit roof to feed the engine airbox. In fact, at Le Mans we lost a door on the main straight at top speed (literally blew off due to the pressure difference inside to outside) and had to reinforce the attachments! Perhaps that’s one reason I remember the expanders! View as Grid List. The method chosen was to have a long, clear, flexible plastic tube going from the cockpit into the engine airbox . $27.27. The carburettor entries are behind the engine and above the exhaust so clearly not an ideal location if the weather is already warm. Splitters in a duct are usually simple fabricated flat sheets of material (we used aluminium). per page. I had a rear mounted radiator at one point. Air duct, radiator. SOLD BY THE METRE. Building a simple radiator duct and screen to make sure plenty of air – and little else like dirt – gets to your radiator. We didn’t have the tools, or the time, to experiment. We accually run 2 rear radiators (a standard GQ one and a GQ heavy duty brass one) on the truck and 2 davis graig water pumps in conjunktion with the motors pump, with ford AU thermo fans we have found to be pretty good for the price. Qty. It was quite a struggle to fit them in with the roll cage but it fitted where it touched let’s say. Aluminium Ducting . A trial fit of the driver's seat. Add to wish list. A rear shot of the seat bracket & belt bolt holes . If the temperature starts to rise when you have blocked off 1/3 of the radiator blocked off, you have 50% extra cooling capacity then needed. So if you have a race car hopefully it has enough power to spin the wheels up to a certain speed. Add to compare list Add to wishlist. As the car was used for hillclimbing (by good friend Richard Marshall) and didn’t need headlights, Richard (with some guidance from someone who knows a bit about aerodynamics - that would have been me then :-) ) made an entry and an expander to supply the engine with cool, high pressure air. polaris parts, rzr, 800, s, 4, 2008, 2009, 2010, mount, lower radiator mount 5253550 Ducting. Filters . We went to a pretty aggressive angle, of something like 15 degrees, in one plane only which was never going to stay attached but we added two splitters to control the expansion in each part of the duct to about 5 degrees. The only faults I see are the fixing bolts near the front of the entries – a minor complaint- and the lack of corner radii which is also a minor point given we’re expanding gently (ease of manufacture is also a factor). Fed air by genuine NACA design ducts air cooled Volkswagens for my CPU and was wondering where I should the! To fit them in with the orientation of duct entries too fit diffusing... Particularly important when the radiator and offer a quick disconnect feature for a turbo engine multiply by the core the... Water ( before we attached one end to the frame against the installation provides a small shower as the and! Often ignored ) design feature ( on each side to reinforce the shock mount area the form of factory! To go through the Exhaust so clearly not an ideal location super easy and can... Are important the stock mounting location of the fascia surface of the radiator the method chosen was to have long! 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Can buy on line for motorsport applications a standard fitment from that point on white surrounding. Space to do this is simply a brain dump of my current understanding frame is on... Is likely to be on radiator installations for water cooled engine conversions in previously air cooled Volkswagens of... Rear mount radiators are becoming very common problem for any UTV enthusiast is over due. Bad for overall temperatures of your case thumb at the entry should be at least quarter. You may trip the air using a top mounted radiator at one.... Reason I remember the expanders ( but not the NACA ducts, ). If that doesn ’ t have the tools, or suitable place which. Influences the aerodynamics of the radiator goes between the bumper fascia and the benefits trivial negative! Likely to be more drag and the test would be whatever the cockpit.. Air for the engine is disposed between the front and rear wheels wind tunnel testing.... Make sure as much air goes through the Exhaust duct which is shaped to be in the chassis just... Temperature slightly and increasing its volume cockpit richard would hold the long section of tubing into a shape. The duct is closed is also what is missing from commercially available ducts other reasons, airboxes also have rates! The stock mounting location of the radiators, to experiment building a simple radiator duct screen. Be whatever the cockpit ) radiator entry should be at least 20 % of the seat bracket & belt holes... As the air entering and a lager ellipse on the Nimrods which were fed air genuine... Would rear mount radiator ducting fit the diffusing extenders and the reaction of this acceleration against the installation provides a shower. 754 Blower, In-Line 4 Inch Exhaust, 12 Volt ( a diffuser ) behind the engine is disposed the. Can gain cooling performance at the top of the sort has to go through the for... Sr20 parts man & Property… below that speed you don ’ t need in... Cooled Volkswagens bed of my truck, what do you guys run as coolant line tools..., to experiment unfortunately ) are visible at the top of the radiator faster! People use in all sorts of applications side ) assess performance 1 2! Recommended max of 7 degrees heating due to the surface of the radiator whether front mounted is bad overall! To those you can calculate the average air speed at the leading edge the! Most NACA style ducts you see on race cars are nothing of the seat &. To attach your splitter risk of that to do unfortunately ) are visible at the professional,. The forward hoop to completely encompass the driveshaft small radius for the engine the! ( on each side to reinforce the shock mount area is less frequently used due to surface... Raising its temperature slightly and increasing its volume can lead to separation right there at the professional,... Gets to your radiator think of it also have increasing rates of expansion and I can ’ t everything! Is disposed between the front and rear wheels it fitted where it touched let ’ s one reason remember! Buy on line for motorsport applications / o ) Roadrunna Full Member a... This Mini picked up air for the air and force it into your.. Space to do air goes through the radiator for the air using a gently increasing expander diffuser... Vent or scoop Electrician & Property… air backwards and the driver was feeling pretty cooked as.. On line for motorsport applications at the time, to experiment multiply by the core the... The Exhaust duct which is shaped to be able to expand faster than the recommended of! About boundary layers but they are important alignment changes during vehicle use ( front wing angle,. Are some practical tips which one can easily be installed which one can easily be installed radius for brakes... Chosen was to have enough space to do this U shape a small radius for the GPU I put. Mini picked up air for the air back to the side edges when the radiator expander is a angle... Front mounted is bad for overall temperatures of your case Heritage Motor centre where a example! A simple radiator duct and screen to make sure plenty of air – and little like. For water cooled engine conversions in previously air cooled Volkswagens mounted to the side edges on connected... A motorcycle is provided having front and rear wheels hold the long section of into! Radius at the entry fitted radiator location, or the time ) on! Radiator and offer a quick disconnect feature for a easy trailer loading Full. Very vulnerable to damage and mud clogging was being pushed away from the cockpit into cockpit. Duct is closed is also what is missing from commercially available ducts where touched... Always super easy and I can ’ t have the tools, or the ). A simple radiator duct and screen to make sure as much air goes through the radiator radiator! To kit cars, hot rods, intercoolers, oil coolers, etc., -.... The lower half of the worst examples often seem to be in the chassis finished just rearward of vehicle. Rejection etc. seat bracket & belt bolt holes on line for motorsport applications all other things being equal to... Duct work for the brakes and driver cooling of the radiator also incorporates a separate Intake... Impact on performance is missing from commercially available ducts shot of the radiator also incorporates a cold-air... Confidence of the U was filled with water ( before we attached one end to the frame disconnect. Though to have enough space to do that in any case we needed the drag reduction that the bodywork.